We don't like to think about it...flush and it's gone, right?
The NEORSD would have you believe that their proposed rate increase is an example of good government and sound ecology--and today they paid the Plain Dealer (with your money) to run a full-paid advertisement defending their decision to stick us with the additional fees.
Exempting commercial property (or taxing commercial at a lower rate) – large malls with huge paved areas – is exactly the wrong way to go. All impervious surfaces must be mitigated, or paid for via a square foot tax. And the so called pervious surfaces need to be rated by peculation/time. One green lawn is not like another in terms of absorption.
The NEOSD bureaucracy is made bigger and stronger and can have more employees every time there is a tax hike. Which suggests, unfortunately, that some of the motivation is not related to hard surfaces, but hard cash and developers/commercial property lobbying.
Along with the introduction of a storm water tax which is levied at the same rate on everyone/every hard surface, NEORD needs to institute conservation measures by subsidizing and mandating the installation of low consumption (6 liter, 1.6 gallon as opposed to High Efficiency Toilets which used 1.28 gallons) like the one in the above image.
The toilet is made in Mexico – which tells us how capable we are here in Ohio with ceramics. Ohio used to be number one in the US with brick, tile, and ceramic production....NEO, say bye bye to competitiveness and competence.
NEORSD has a few factors working in its favor, however: NEO is shrinking, buildlings are being demolished and the lots returned to debris and dirt. That will cut down storwater run-off.
And, since the proposed tax if implemented will be largely ineffectual, (because it will not mitigate the large commercial contribution to storm water/flooding), people will still have their houses flooded, and will leave the area.
Meanwhile, no downspout disconnects are mandated, and there has been no smoke testing of sewers to confirm any illegal sanitary/storm connections. NEOSD is really upside down.
NOTICE OF PUBLIC MEETINGS NORTHEAST OHIO REGIONAL SEWER DISTRICT CALENDAR YEAR 2010 Notice is hereby given that the regular meetings of the Board of Trustees of the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District for the year 2010 will be held at the District's Administrative Offices, 3900 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio 44115, commencing at 12:30 P.M., on the first and third Thursdays of each month. Notice is also given that the Governance Committee of the Board of Trustees will meet on March 18, 2010 and June 17, 2010 commencing at 11:00 A.M. The Audit Committee will meet on February 18, 2010 and May 20, 2010 commencing at 11:00 A.M. The Finance Committee will meet on March 4, 2010 from 9:00 A.M. to 12:00 P.M., to review the budget, and on July 1, 2010 commencing at 11:00 A.M., for a regular meeting. This notice is given in accordance with Section 121.22 of the Ohio Revised Code and in accordance with By-Law XIV of the Board of Trustees of the District. Any person, upon request and payment of an annual fee of Ten Dollars ($10.00) may obtain notice of the time and place of all regularly scheduled meetings, and of the time, place and purpose of all special meetings of the Board of Trustees of the District. MARLENE SUNDHEIMER Director of Law Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District 3900 Euclid Avenue Cleveland, Ohio 44115 p.d.dec.30,2009 2387133
Uh,,, yep
ORC 121.22 section F
(F) Every public body, by rule, shall establish a reasonable method whereby any person may determine the time and place of all regularly scheduled meetings and the time, place, and purpose of all special meetings. A public body shall not hold a special meeting unless it gives at least twenty-four hours’ advance notice to the news media that have requested notification, except in the event of an emergency requiring immediate official action. In the event of an emergency, the member or members calling the meeting shall notify the news media that have requested notification immediately of the time, place, and purpose of the meeting.
The rule shall provide that any person, upon request and payment of a reasonable fee, may obtain reasonable advance notification of all meetings at which any specific type of public business is to be discussed. Provisions for advance notification may include, but are not limited to, mailing the agenda of meetings to all subscribers on a mailing list or mailing notices in self-addressed, stamped envelopes provided by the person.
Maybe Rzepka can't hear Solon voters who may wish to continue to be surrounded by nature. I thought Metroparks was about land conservation and preservation of natural areas. Somehow having a developer as one of the commissioners leaves a bad taste in my mouth and may not bode well either for the parks. That aside, who in his right mind would launch a housing development on a greenfield in this day and age - in this economy? Wonder if Rzepka has heard of sprawl?
Fred Rzepka is a developer...not a conservationist...his role at the Metroparks has been to help himself...what a surprise, there?!
If the NEORSD was serious about stormwater it would buy up Hawthorne Country Club and Golf Course, which is part of the Tinker Creek Watershed, which is the LARGEST tributary to the CUYAHOGA RIVER, which provides drinking water to the City of Akron and which feeds LAKE ERIE--our drinking water supply.
Is it asking too much from the guy who ran the Metroparks FOREVER to consider just DONATING the entire Hawthorne Country Club and Golf Course to the Cleveland Metroparks???
No, folks--he is suing to put in more housing...more housing means more shit to clean up!
Submitted by ward14resident on Thu, 01/21/2010 - 01:31.
I don't know...sorry I can't help you there. But, I just found out that there is an ordinance in the City of Cleveland that states that driveways can't be gravel unless they were in existance before 1959 and less than 50% of the gravel has ever been removed. Those driveways can be grandfathered...all others cannot be gravel driveways.
I didn't know this. I heard about it on Facebook.
I guess the ordinance is being questioned in the appeals court. Have you heard anything about this law?
See above comment. Flipper developer dumped a load of gravel to create a drive in my neighborhood (I actually don't mind), but I do mind the investment mentality of flipping and the double standard that applies as the City of Cleveland is citing longstanding taxpaying homeowners for violations, while outside investment schemers get away with it.
Submitted by Norm Roulet on Sun, 09/19/2010 - 04:03.
And who appointed these maggots? Cleveland's corrupt piece of shit Mayor, the County commissioners, and the Suburban Council of Governments...
The District is governed by its Board of Trustees (the "Board"). The Board consists of seven members, each of whom serves a five-year term and who are appointed as follows:
two by the Mayor of the City of Cleveland;
two by a council of governments comprised of representatives of all the suburban communities served by the District system called the Suburban Council of Governments;
one by the Board of County Commissioners of Cuyahoga County;
one by the appointing authority of the subdistrict with the greatest sewage flow (currently the Mayor of the City of Cleveland); and
one by the appointing authority of the subdistrict with the greatest population (which is currently the Suburban Council of Governments).
"Report on Riverview Towers!"
"With the full weight of its gigantic foot pressing on the head of the Westerly Sewer Interceptor and pushing it and Riverbed Road toward the river’s edge, where are the Riverview Towers in the hillside remediation plans? They are found nowhere; not in NEORSD document, nor an earmark-funded assessment draft completed by the USACE. Yet this massive structure, built in defiance of accepted soil and engineering stability standards, and the high-rises’ cracking walls and
eroding foundation, present serious structural and safety questions."
(right on...Catch Five and other commenters today...SOS... of course, I would follow these comments but I can't now that I have been banned from commenting at Cleveland.com)
It comes down to NEORSD planning poorly over the past 40 years AND being a bloated entity.
Some numbers. Lets say Cleveland has 1500 miles of sewer. 10% already separate, so take off 150 miles off that number. So 1350 miles of sewer that needs to be dealt with. Multiply that by 5280 (miles to feet), about 7.1 million feet of sewer. Assume $250/foot of new sewer. That should be in the ballpark of $1.8 Billion to replace ALL the sewers in Cleveland. Then $3.6 Billion to say put in a sanitary, replace the street, and then come back and then install a storm. That DOESN'T take into account that some combined sewers could be relined (or another trenchless technology) to become a large sanitary sewer and to squeeze in a storm for the catch basins. Also that doesn't take into account savings for replacing other utilities at the same time. AND that doesn't take into account that a mixture of things could be done (drainage ditches for some areas, holding areas for combined sewers in a SMALL area, etc.) AND yet that doesn't take into account capacity increases as a result of less combined waste water moving through the system (thus as more combined waste water is removed from the system less CSO events should occur because their is less volume in the system). AND that doesn't take into account that we'll need to replace many miles of sewer throughout the system ANY WAY. That $3 Billion DOES NOT include replacing your city's collection system!
Then what about the houses? Not much water comes from the foundation drains, most comes from the roof. Require all houses connected to a combined sewer to disconnect their down spouts and put down splash blocks. It should reduce the runoff rate some and should wind up in the catch basins. Newer houses/businesses already have separate systems on the property which then combines into one connection at the street. Then what about the businesses? Yeah, their systems are complex BUT residential properties are the vast majority of Cleveland. Other alternatives for the business districts should be investigated.
The numbers NEORSD is giving us DO NOT make sense. They also don't take into account stricter waste water effluent guidelines in the future that we may need to adhere to, which would increase our rates even more! AND those numbers don't take into account the tens of millions of dollars they are getting from the EPA!
When does it end...? It shouldn't be so hard for these agencies to determine whether a homeowner qualifies for a discount.
I know that there are problems with verifying homeownership. In some instances, the house is registered in a senior's name, but the kids live there, instead....
But, certainly this amount of fraud is minimal compared to the scams ran by Plymouth Park etc. Having the Department of Aging in to verify an application and continued application should be required on an annual basis.
Is there a good model of property appraisals in another city and region? I sure hope that FitzGerald is looking for it...
Submitted by ANGELnWard14 on Sat, 11/20/2010 - 00:27.
Untainted business models can work effectively. Our region can blossom from accountability and ethics from the start. Public Trust is a priceless investment in such an extraordinarily diluted county of public corruption.
Open and Transparent Government Process empowers our public at large to scrutinize actions and activities from the onset. The magnitude of citizen activists in Cuyahoga County uniting to dismantle the corrupt regime will enjoy oversighting our leadership readily. I believe that you will have an onset of new revitalized economic development and investment into both the public government operations and the individual and corporate business investments locally with these sweeping changes.
There are countless local county employees who have been RAISED UP TO BELIEVE that they are RIGHT when in many cases they are ACTING IN VIOLATION of Federal, State, and Local laws. It's an extraordinary experience to come face to face with these individuals who truly believe that they are "RIGHT" or "GOD" because they were given a job in those offices downtown. Most of them are UNQUALIFIED or have been given "On The Job Training" which definitively is not acceptable.
I actually assisted a friend ascertain the Homestead Application, get the Physician to sign off on their disability, and returned it to the County Administration building without hesitation. Their file was amended without problems a few years ago.
As the new charter government is effectuated, these are areas of interest that should be considered and submitted to the leaders who are voting on our behalf. I guess that means getting the contact info for Brady in our neck of the woods and remaining steadfast on his behind to do the right thing and not perpetuate pay to play politics. He is part of the ongoing local Democratic Machine.
United States and the State of Ohio v. Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, Civil Action No. 10–cv–02895
Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:08 AM
pubcomment-ees [dot] enrd [at] usdoj [dot] gov
I formally oppose the terms of the consent decree. I am a long time resident of Northeast Ohio and the exorbitant sewer fees imposed by this measure will undermine the local economy and residents' ability to live here. Furthermore, we have seen that the NEORSD betrayed the public trust and has not worked to improve water quality and the environment in Northeast Ohio.
The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District has not shown fiscal responsibility or accountability in their use of fees collected from residents in their service area. Recently, a high level NEORSD attorney was convicted of felony charges on bribery:
Also, the NEORSD continues to allow developers to tie-in to antiquated combined sewer systems. My neighborhood in Cleveland Ohio was recently subjected to this level of incompetency and environmental injustice:
The corruption in Northeast Ohio, so evident in the administration of the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, precludes any meaningful infrastructure improvement. I respectfully ask the federal EPA to renegotiate the terms of this consent decree to build greater accountability into the terms.
Submitted by Jeff Buster on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 11:36.
While the NEOMEDIA Group's young reporter's (Leila Atassi and Andrew Tobias) are to be complimented for their inquiry (thanks for going to Philly), they would benefit from more cynicism.
It is clear who the money for stormwater improvements comes from - water users - extrapolated in some local systems as a ratio of how much water comes in to a water meter - no one has a "sewer" meter - and in other local schemes from "hard surface" on real property and in other schemes as a combination of the two.
But remember - the most expensive engineered "solutions" to CSO's (combined sewer overflows) are the solutions favored by large contractors and the construction unions.
Polititians don't get lobbied to encourage them to vote on the inexpensive solutions. Politians are lobbied by businesses and labor groups to encourage the politians to pass legislation which will funnel (rhymes with "tunnel") the massive revenues to the lobbiests.
NEORSD's tunnel storage systems are totally cave-man. Just look at the Cuyahoga River color! Full of mud, right? Why is the Cuyahoga River full of suspended mud? Was the Cuyahoga always full of suspended mud?
Or maybe we just need to start with some ground cover and duff in the rivershed....but that wouldn't cost anything! so that solution is OUT!
Printer-friendly version
NEORSD has their "solution" upside down
Why do we continue to take it?
How do we revolt against this tyranny!
you gotta pay to know
NEORSD requires $10 fee to be informed of when they meet?
Uh,,, yep
ORC 121.22 section F
Stormwater TAX--simple question
What project does this latest fee fund...any one know? Does it pay to buy land and prevent development??? I want to see the balance sheet.
land conservation stormwater and metroparks
From Cuyahoga County Planning Commission weblog Solon News Archive 22 January 2010:
Maybe Rzepka can't hear Solon voters who may wish to continue to be surrounded by nature. I thought Metroparks was about land conservation and preservation of natural areas. Somehow having a developer as one of the commissioners leaves a bad taste in my mouth and may not bode well either for the parks. That aside, who in his right mind would launch a housing development on a greenfield in this day and age - in this economy? Wonder if Rzepka has heard of sprawl?
Maybe he needs to attend Kunstler's talk at CPL
"This doesn't make it better." James Howard Kunstler on sprawl.
Rzepka, Metroparks and NEORSD
Fred Rzepka is a developer...not a conservationist...his role at the Metroparks has been to help himself...what a surprise, there?!
If the NEORSD was serious about stormwater it would buy up Hawthorne Country Club and Golf Course, which is part of the Tinker Creek Watershed, which is the LARGEST tributary to the CUYAHOGA RIVER, which provides drinking water to the City of Akron and which feeds LAKE ERIE--our drinking water supply.
Is it asking too much from the guy who ran the Metroparks FOREVER to consider just DONATING the entire Hawthorne Country Club and Golf Course to the Cleveland Metroparks???
No, folks--he is suing to put in more housing...more housing means more shit to clean up!
http://www.cleveland.com/chagrinsolonsun/index.ssf/2010/01/new_housing_plan_submitted_for.html
I don't know...sorry I can't
I don't know...sorry I can't help you there. But, I just found out that there is an ordinance in the City of Cleveland that states that driveways can't be gravel unless they were in existance before 1959 and less than 50% of the gravel has ever been removed. Those driveways can be grandfathered...all others cannot be gravel driveways.
I didn't know this. I heard about it on Facebook.
I guess the ordinance is being questioned in the appeals court. Have you heard anything about this law?
Gravel drives and stormwater
See above comment. Flipper developer dumped a load of gravel to create a drive in my neighborhood (I actually don't mind), but I do mind the investment mentality of flipping and the double standard that applies as the City of Cleveland is citing longstanding taxpaying homeowners for violations, while outside investment schemers get away with it.
The Big NEORSD FLUSH continues...
Your money....just how is NEORSD spending the additional stormwater tax/fee imposed on each homeowner?
How will Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District recover from FBI probe of former lawyer?
By Michael Scott, The Plain Dealer
April 25, 2010, 12:00PMMORE of the same....
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/businessman_stanley_lojek_plea.html
The folks who will soon squeeze you for more money via the stormwater tax...
And who appointed these maggots?
And who appointed these maggots? Cleveland's corrupt piece of shit Mayor, the County commissioners, and the Suburban Council of Governments...
And who appointed the School Board...
And who appointed RTA...
And who appointed Port Authority...
All total shit.
Disrupt IT
same old S$&%&! HUD, NEORSD...no accountability
SEE: article in PD--Polensek defending Sewer District because Easterly Wastewater Treatment is in his ward...
Cleveland Councilman Mike Polensek says drastic sewer increase necessary to clean up Lake Erie
By
Michael Scott, The Plain Dealer
| Thursday, November 18, 2010, 8:30 PM
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/11/cleveland_councilman_says_dras.html
Here's the story of the sewer bill. I interpret this to mean that CMHA has a heavy hand in a sewer rate hike. Or that they want us to pay their bill.
http://www.voiceoftheflats.org/newsletters/oxbowAction428%20.pdf
OXBOW ACTION 428
10 October, 2010
"Report on Riverview Towers!"
"With the full weight of its gigantic foot pressing on the head of the Westerly Sewer Interceptor and pushing it and Riverbed Road toward the river’s edge, where are the Riverview Towers in the hillside remediation plans? They are found nowhere; not in NEORSD document, nor an earmark-funded assessment draft completed by the USACE. Yet this massive structure, built in defiance of accepted soil and engineering stability standards, and the high-rises’ cracking walls and
eroding foundation, present serious structural and safety questions."
(right on...Catch Five and other commenters today...SOS... of course, I would follow these comments but I can't now that I have been banned from commenting at Cleveland.com)
Archiving comment here:
It comes down to NEORSD planning poorly over the past 40 years AND being a bloated entity.
Some numbers. Lets say Cleveland has 1500 miles of sewer. 10% already separate, so take off 150 miles off that number. So 1350 miles of sewer that needs to be dealt with. Multiply that by 5280 (miles to feet), about 7.1 million feet of sewer. Assume $250/foot of new sewer. That should be in the ballpark of $1.8 Billion to replace ALL the sewers in Cleveland. Then $3.6 Billion to say put in a sanitary, replace the street, and then come back and then install a storm. That DOESN'T take into account that some combined sewers could be relined (or another trenchless technology) to become a large sanitary sewer and to squeeze in a storm for the catch basins. Also that doesn't take into account savings for replacing other utilities at the same time. AND that doesn't take into account that a mixture of things could be done (drainage ditches for some areas, holding areas for combined sewers in a SMALL area, etc.) AND yet that doesn't take into account capacity increases as a result of less combined waste water moving through the system (thus as more combined waste water is removed from the system less CSO events should occur because their is less volume in the system). AND that doesn't take into account that we'll need to replace many miles of sewer throughout the system ANY WAY. That $3 Billion DOES NOT include replacing your city's collection system!
Then what about the houses? Not much water comes from the foundation drains, most comes from the roof. Require all houses connected to a combined sewer to disconnect their down spouts and put down splash blocks. It should reduce the runoff rate some and should wind up in the catch basins. Newer houses/businesses already have separate systems on the property which then combines into one connection at the street. Then what about the businesses? Yeah, their systems are complex BUT residential properties are the vast majority of Cleveland. Other alternatives for the business districts should be investigated.
The numbers NEORSD is giving us DO NOT make sense. They also don't take into account stricter waste water effluent guidelines in the future that we may need to adhere to, which would increase our rates even more! AND those numbers don't take into account the tens of millions of dollars they are getting from the EPA!
Hmmm...whatever happened to the 14 million dollars of mitigation funding given to the City of Cleveland and NEORSD to address water quality in the Doan Brook watershed (heavily impacted by CSOs)....I won't hold my breath trying to figure that one out...
NO Accountability...
20% Water Discount Available to Low Income or Homestead
Call the Cleveland Housing Network at (216) 574-7100.
Ask for an application for the low income water bill discount. They will mail it to you to be completed and returned. They are offering a 20% discount to low income owners. This will also reduce your sewer bill proportionately.
Call the Water Dept. Directly for a HOMESTEAD DISCOUNT to your water bill if you are over 65, disabled, and own your home. The division of Water telephone number is (216) 664-3130.
Paper work
Thanks Dianna--here is another paper to fill out and file for some savings...but the process is convoluted and confusing.
http://auditor.cuyahogacounty.us/commservices/homesteadforms.htm
When does it end...? It shouldn't be so hard for these agencies to determine whether a homeowner qualifies for a discount.
I know that there are problems with verifying homeownership. In some instances, the house is registered in a senior's name, but the kids live there, instead....
But, certainly this amount of fraud is minimal compared to the scams ran by Plymouth Park etc. Having the Department of Aging in to verify an application and continued application should be required on an annual basis.
Is there a good model of property appraisals in another city and region? I sure hope that FitzGerald is looking for it...
Business Models that Include Ethics....
Untainted business models can work effectively. Our region can blossom from accountability and ethics from the start. Public Trust is a priceless investment in such an extraordinarily diluted county of public corruption.
Open and Transparent Government Process empowers our public at large to scrutinize actions and activities from the onset. The magnitude of citizen activists in Cuyahoga County uniting to dismantle the corrupt regime will enjoy oversighting our leadership readily. I believe that you will have an onset of new revitalized economic development and investment into both the public government operations and the individual and corporate business investments locally with these sweeping changes.
There are countless local county employees who have been RAISED UP TO BELIEVE that they are RIGHT when in many cases they are ACTING IN VIOLATION of Federal, State, and Local laws. It's an extraordinary experience to come face to face with these individuals who truly believe that they are "RIGHT" or "GOD" because they were given a job in those offices downtown. Most of them are UNQUALIFIED or have been given "On The Job Training" which definitively is not acceptable.
I actually assisted a friend ascertain the Homestead Application, get the Physician to sign off on their disability, and returned it to the County Administration building without hesitation. Their file was amended without problems a few years ago.
As the new charter government is effectuated, these are areas of interest that should be considered and submitted to the leaders who are voting on our behalf. I guess that means getting the contact info for Brady in our neck of the woods and remaining steadfast on his behind to do the right thing and not perpetuate pay to play politics. He is part of the ongoing local Democratic Machine.
Letter to EPA
United States and the State of Ohio v. Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, Civil Action No. 10–cv–02895
Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:08 AM
pubcomment-ees [dot] enrd [at] usdoj [dot] gov
I formally oppose the terms of the consent decree. I am a long time resident of Northeast Ohio and the exorbitant sewer fees imposed by this measure will undermine the local economy and residents' ability to live here. Furthermore, we have seen that the NEORSD betrayed the public trust and has not worked to improve water quality and the environment in Northeast Ohio.
The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District has not shown fiscal responsibility or accountability in their use of fees collected from residents in their service area. Recently, a high level NEORSD attorney was convicted of felony charges on bribery:
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/the_bill_schatz_factor_how_wil.h...
And, 14 million dollars of mitigation funds that were to be used to correct CSOs and flooding in the Doan Brook watershed has been squandered-
SEE:
http://realneo.us/content/flush
Also, the NEORSD continues to allow developers to tie-in to antiquated combined sewer systems. My neighborhood in Cleveland Ohio was recently subjected to this level of incompetency and environmental injustice:
http://realneo.us/blog/lmcshane/lake-erie-living#comment-6264
The corruption in Northeast Ohio, so evident in the administration of the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, precludes any meaningful infrastructure improvement. I respectfully ask the federal EPA to renegotiate the terms of this consent decree to build greater accountability into the terms.
Sincerely,
Laura A. McShane
PD actually questions sanity of NEORSD mega tunnels
An attempt by PD to question ethics and fiscal policy at NEORSD - thanks to young Leila Atassi and Andrew Tobias.
Gary Starr rocks - watch the video !!! WWE vs. NEORSD
My only complaint - would be that he and Terri Schwartz still play dumb on the "Land Bank" charade:
http://www.cleveland.com/drain/index.ssf/2014/03/live_coverage_of_roundtable_di.html
Leila Atassi follow the money - who benefits in NEORSD plan?
While the NEOMEDIA Group's young reporter's (Leila Atassi and Andrew Tobias) are to be complimented for their inquiry (thanks for going to Philly), they would benefit from more cynicism.
It is clear who the money for stormwater improvements comes from - water users - extrapolated in some local systems as a ratio of how much water comes in to a water meter - no one has a "sewer" meter - and in other local schemes from "hard surface" on real property and in other schemes as a combination of the two.
But remember - the most expensive engineered "solutions" to CSO's (combined sewer overflows) are the solutions favored by large contractors and the construction unions.
Polititians don't get lobbied to encourage them to vote on the inexpensive solutions. Politians are lobbied by businesses and labor groups to encourage the politians to pass legislation which will funnel (rhymes with "tunnel") the massive revenues to the lobbiests.
NEORSD's tunnel storage systems are totally cave-man. Just look at the Cuyahoga River color! Full of mud, right? Why is the Cuyahoga River full of suspended mud? Was the Cuyahoga always full of suspended mud?
Or maybe we just need to start with some ground cover and duff in the rivershed....but that wouldn't cost anything! so that solution is OUT!